Semicha Aid-Melicha-Chapter 78

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The current chapter discusses whether one may roast unsalted meat that is placed inside dough such as is done when making meat filled pastries. The issue with such a case is that the blood does not have room to escape as the dough blocks all of the blood’s exits and it is hence similar to one who cooked unsalted meat in a pot.


1. May meat be covered with dough while it is roasting for its blood?[1]
Meat contains blood: It is forbidden to place [even a liquidly batter[2] of] dough over chicken [or meat[3]] which has not been salted for its blood, [and to then roast it[4]].[5] If one roasted it together everything[6] is forbidden. Now, although the Talmud[7] differentiates between Semida [coarse flour[8]] and other flours[9], and between whether the dough has become red or not[10], nevertheless today we are no longer expert in these matters and therefore it is forbidden in all cases. [This refers to a thin batter of dough, however by a thick batter of dough even according to the Talmud everything is forbidden as will be explained below.[11]]

Meat does not contain blood: If the meat was salted Shiur Melicha and was afterwards washed for its blood then it is permitted to roast it together with dough being placed over the meat.[12]

Pastry filled with unsalted meat:[13] It is forbidden [even according to the Talmud[14]] to fill pastries with meat that has not been salted for its blood and then roast it. If one did so it is considered as if the meat has been cooked in a pot for all matters, whether to be lenient[15] or stringent. [Hence the pastries are forbidden to be eaten unless they contain 60x their meat[16] and even in such a case the meat itself remains prohibited.[17] In addition to 60x some Poskim[18] also require the removal of a Netila from the inner part of the dough. If there is 60x versus the unsalted meat then even if there were other foods in the pastry those foods are also permitted.[19]]



If one roasted meat for its blood and the meat was covered with dough everything is forbidden unless the dough contains 60x the meat in which case the dough is permitted [although according to some even in such a case one must still remove a Netila worth from the inner side of the dough].



May one do Melicha to meat that is covered with dough?[20]

One may not do Melicha to meat which is wrapped in dough. If one went ahead and salted it everything is forbidden as it is considered as if one salted meat in a vessel without a hole.


2. May meat which is roasting for its blood be smeared with oil, spices or barbecue sauce?[21]

Although it is forbidden to place dough over the meat, it is permitted to smear oil or gravy[22] over meat that has not been salted for its blood, [and roast it], as these substances do not refrain the blood from leaving the meat.


[1] 78/1

[2] Shach 78/1 and so rules Levush; The reason one must establish this case to refer to even to liquidly batter is because the Talmud prohibits placing meat in thick dough and does not differentiate between dough’s in that case. Hence the Michaber must be referring even to a thin batter. [ibid]

[3] Kreisy 78/1

[4] Shach 78/1

[5] The reason for this prohibition is because the dough prevents the blood from leaving the meat and it is hence considered as if one is cooking the meat in a pot.

[6] Meaning both the meat and the dough. [Yad Yehuda Katzar 78/1]

[7] Pesachim 74b

[8] See Rashi Pesachim 74b “Semida” that it refers to Soles which does not stick together well and hence turns into crumbs. This refers to Semolina.

[9] The Talmud permits roasting with [a liquidly batter of] course flour but not fine flour being that coarse flour is crumbly and allows the blood to escape. [See Rashi there]

[10] The Talmud permits the food if the [liquidly batter of] dough is still white after the roasting as this is a sign it does not contain blood and the blood of the meat was able to escape. This applies even if one used fine flour.

[11] Shach 78/1

[12] See Peri Megadim 78 M.Z. 2 that the novelty of this ruling is that it excludes the ruling of the Rambam that even after Shiur Melicha the meat still contains some blood and must have Chalita done to it.

[13] Rama ibid

Ruling of Peri Chadash: The Peri Chadash 78/1 argues on the Rama and rules that cooking in a pastry does not have the status of cooking but rather of roasting and hence 60x is not required and one is only required to remove a Netila worth around the meat. Practically one may not be lenient like this opinion versus the Rama. [Kaf Hachaim 78/11]

[14] Shach 78/1

[15] The leniency in this case is that if there is 60x we permit the dough even without Netila, in contrast to the law by roast. [Aruch Hashulchan 78/4]

[16] This can occur in a case that one stuffed the pastry with other salted meat, in which case if the stuffing and pastry has 60x versus the unsalted meat, everything is permitted. [See Taz 78/2; Kaf Hachaim 78/8] Alternatively if the dough is very large and thick and contains very little meat if it has 60x the meat it is permitted. [Aruch Hashulchan 78/4]

[17] Shach 78/2; Taz 78/2; Toras Chatas 28/2 as we rule regarding unsalted meat that was cooked that even if the meat contains 60x it is forbidden. Some rule based on this that according to the Michaber and Sefaradim even the meat is permitted as the Michaber rules that unsalted cooked meat is permitted with 60x. [Kneses Hagdola 78/8] However the Kaf Hachaim 78/10 rules that in such a case since the dough clogs the meat even the Michaber agrees the meat is forbidden even if there is 60x.

[18] Peri Chadash 78/1; Peri Megadim 78 S.D. 2; Chavas Daas 78/3; Kaf Hachaim 78/11

[19] Taz 78/2; The novelty of this ruling is that we do not say that perhaps some of the pieces near the unsalted meat absorbed blood first and became Chanan and now one needs 60x also versus those pieces. [Taz ibid]

[20] Peri Megadim 78  S.D. 1

[21] Rama 78/1

Ruling of Rama in Toras Chatas: In the Toras Chatas 28/3 the Rama rules that on is initially to avoid smearing oil onto the meat prior to roasting. The Peri Megadim 78 M.Z. 1 rules that the Rama here retracted his ruling from Toras Chatas and that it is permitted even initially. [See Darkei Teshuvah 78/4]

[22] This refers to Tzir that does not contain blood. [Taz 78/1]

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