# How many people are needed to answer for Chazaras Hashatz-Part 2

How many people are needed to answer for Chazaras Hashatz-Part 2

If a person begins Shemoneh Esrei together with the Chazan by Chazaras Hashatz, can he be considered as one of the nine answers, and therefore only eight answers are required?

Some Poskim[1] rule that a person who begins Shemoneh Esrei together with the Chazan by Chazaras Hashatz, is considered as one of the nine answers, and therefore only eight answers are required.[2] Other Poskim[3], however, negate this and rule that one requires nine actual answers, and so is the implied opinion of Admur.[4]

What to do if the 10th man is up to Shemoneh Esrei:[5]

In the event that the 10th man is up to Shemoneh Esrei [or is by Birchas Shema and the Minyan is willing to wait until he reaches Shemoneh Esrei], and there are nine others who are able to answer [including the Chazan, i.e. 8 plus the Chazan] then instead of waiting for him to finish his personal Shemoneh Esrei so he can answer, he can begin his Shemoneh Esrei out loud and in essence become the Chazan for Chazaras Hashatz and save the Minyan time. [In such a case, he is to remember to recite Elokaiy Netzor at the end of his Shemoneh Esrei[6] and then take three steps back.[7]] However, one may not rely on those who are lenient to consider one who begins Shemoneh Esrei together with the Chazzan, as one needs nine people actually answering Amen.[8]

What to do if two people are up to Shemoneh Esrei:

In the event that two people out of the ten are unable to answer, such as that they are in Birchas Shema or in middle of Shemoneh Esrei, then the Minyan may not begin Chazaras Hashatz until they finish Shemoneh Esrei and can answer [or one finishes Shemoneh Esrei, and the second who was more behind and is now up to Shemoneh Esrei, becomes the Chazan, as stated above]. One may not rely on those who are lenient to consider one who begins Shemoneh Esrei together with the Chazzan as one of the nine answers, and hence it does not help for one of the two to become the Chazan for Chazaras Hashatz and have the second individual begin together with him, as one needs nine people actually answering Amen to perform Chazaras Haashatz, as explained above.[9]

What to do with the Minyan cannot wait for nine answers-Saying Shemoneh Esrei out loud for the sake of Kedusha:[10]

If people in the Minyan are in a rush and not able to wait for the 10th man to reach or finish Shemoneh Esrei so he can be able to answer [such as if two[11] or more of the ten are in the midst of Birchas Shema, or the person Davens a very long Shemoneh Esrei of 10 to 20 minutes], then the Minyan can nevertheless choose to say Shemoneh Esrei aloud for the sake of Kedusha.[12] Doing this type of repetition carries various regulations, as it is not Halachically considered as Chazaras Hashatz, being that one does not have nine answers.[13]

Doing a repetition for the sake of Kedusha carries the following regulations:

1. Under what condition?[14] There must be at least one person in the Minyan who did not yet hear Kedusha.[15] Initially, however, it is preferable for there to be six people who did not hear Kedusha [which is anyways usually the case in the above scenario of a minyan which got stuck without nine answers].[16]
2. How many listeners and answerers: There are at least nine people who will be listening to the Kedusha of the Chazan, and at least five people who will be answering to it.[17]
3. Who?[18] The person who is still the middle of Birchas Shema is to be the one to repeat the Shemoneh Esrei for the sake of Kedusha. Thus, the Minyan is to wait for the first of those who are in middle of Birchas Shema to reach Shemoneh Esrei, and then have him recite his Shemoneh Esrei out loud for the sake of Kedusha until after the blessing of Hakeil Hakadosh.
4. Until where to say aloud: The repetition may only be said for the sake of Kedusha and does not have the status of Chazaras Hashatz, as explained above. Therefore, it may only be said out loud up until the end of the blessing of Hakeil Hakadosh.[19] From there and onwards the Chazan is to say it quietly [and thus certainly he does not recite Birchas Kohanim]. This applies, even if he has already Davened to himself and is simply repeating Shemoneh Esrei for the sake of the Kedusha[20], and certainly applies if he has not yet Davened Shemoneh Esrei, and was chosen to become the Chazan because he was up to Shemoneh Esrei.[21]
5. The order to be followed after the Kedusha:[22] After the completion of Kedusha and Hakeil Hakadosh, the Minyan may continue with the remainder of the prayer [i.e. Tachanun, Kerias Hatorah, Ashrei Uva Letziyon, Shir Shel Yom, Ein Kelokeinu, Aleinu] and some Poskim[23] rule that may even recite all of the However, the stanza of Tiskabel is to be omitted from the Kaddish Shaleim that follows Uva Letziyon.[24]

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[1] Bris Kehuna [Kalfon] Mareches Ches 11; Rav SZ”A in Halichos Shlomo 9:2; Mioreir Yisheinim 55:27; Mikveh Yisrael p. 71; Yimei Yosef O.C. 4; Sefer Halacha Berurah [Yosef] 90:28 and Biurim 19 that so also ruled Harav Ovadia Yosef; Piskeiy Teshuvos 55:11 and 124:9

[2] The reason: Some Poskim suggest that Somebody who starts Shemoneh Esrei together with the Chazan, as since he reads word for word together with the Chazzan therefore he is considered just like the Chazzan himself, and just as the Chazzan joins as one of the 10 even though he is not an answer, so does this individual, as he too is exempt from answering Amen being that he too is considered a Chazzan who does not answer Amen to his own blessings.

[3] Bris Kehuna [Kalfon] Mareches Ches 11 in name of Harav Matzliach Mazuz; See Mishkanos Yaakov O.C. 73; Shraga Hameir 7:2

[5] See Admur 124:3; 123:7; Michaber 124:2; M”A 124:3; Kol Bo 27

[6] Ketzos Hashulchan 22:1

[7] Admur 123:7; Rama 123:5; Ketzos Hashulchan 22:1

[8] See Q&A!

[9] See Q&A regarding if a person who prays together with the Chazan can be considered one of the nine answerers, and that we concluded according to Admur that he cannot. Certainly, it is invalid to have the first individual who reaches Shemoneh Esrei to then go ahead and recite it out loud for his own personal Shemoneh Esrei and also for the sake of Chazaras Hashatz, if there still isn’t nine answers. The reason for this is, as although the blessings would not be considered to be said in vain in such a case being that he’s repeating the prayer for his own obligation [See Admur 55:7; 11; 69:5; 594:1; Piskeiy Teshuvos 55:11 footnote 90], nonetheless, this would not be considered Chazaras Hashatz, but rather simply a repetition for the sake of Kedusha, and hence would have to follow all of the guidelines brought below regarding repeating Shemoneh Esrei for the sake of the Kedusha, which includes only saying aloud until after Hakeil Hakadosh.

[10] See Admur 69:1, 4-5; Piskeiy Teshuvos 69:1; Hisorerus Teshuvah 1:54 who uses this allowance of repeating Shemoneh Esrei for the sake of Kedusha to be Milameid Zechus on those who are not careful to wait for nine answers

The option of continuing with the rest of Davening and making up Chazaras Hashatz later on: Vetzaruch Iyun if instead of the above advice, one can or should advise in such a case for the Minyan to skip Chazaras Hashatz and continue with Tachanun, Kerias Hatorah, Ashrei Uva Letziyon, Aleinu, etc etc, and by then hopefully have nine answerers, and then perform Chazaras Hashatz. While this order seems very strange, it possibly is the best order according to Halacha, as it is the only order that fulfills the obligation of Chazras Hashatz. If one follows this advice, then all the Kaddeishim may be recited so long as there are nine people listening and five answering, although the stanza of Tiskabel is to be omitted from the Kaddish of after Uva Letziyon.

[11] However, if only one person is in the middle of Shema, then as stated earlier, he should simply become the Chazan and perform Chazaras Hashatz when he reaches Shemoneh Esrei, and have nine people answer to his blessings.

[12] Admur 55:7 in parentheses; 55:11; 69:4; Michaber 69:1; Tehila Ledavid 69:2; Ashel Avraham Butchach 69; Imrei Yosher 2:9; Afrasakta Deanya 2:16; Minchas Yitzchak 1:57 and 10:107

Other opinions: Some Poskim question if according to the Radbaz 4:241, brought in M”A 69:4, one may recite the repetition for the sake of the Kedusha in such a case. [Biur Halacha 69:1 “Omer”]

[13] See Admur 69:5 in parentheses

[14] See Admur 69:1 and 4; Michaber 69:1

[15] 2nd opinion in Admur 69:4; Rashi in Tosafus Megillah 23b; Rosh Megillah 3:7

[16] 1st opinion in Admur 69:4; Rambam Tefila 8:4; Rabbeinu Tam in Hagahos Maimanis

[17] As explained in A, see there!

[18] Admur 55:7 in parentheses; 55:11; 69:4 and 5; M”A 69:4; See Admur 69:1 and 4 and 5 [and M”B 69:17] that even one who already Davened is valid to repeat the Shemoneh Esrei for the sake of the Kedusha, nonetheless, he is not initially to do so if there is someone who has not yet Davened present.

[19] Admur 69:5 in parentheses; 124:3; Piskeiy Teshuvos 69 footnote 17

The reason: As it is forbidden for one to raise his voice during his prayer. [Admur 69:5; 101:2]

[20] See Admur 69:1 that once he says Hakeil Hakadosh, the remaining individuals may leave, and he is to then finish the rest of Shemoneh Esrei to himself, as although its entire purpose was for the sake of Kedusha, which was already fulfilled, one cannot recite only half of Shemonah Esrei. Upashut that he cannot say it out loud being that it does not have the status of Chazaras Hashatz and only by a Halachcilly valid Chazaras Hashatz do we allow an out loud repetition, as Admur emphasizes in 69:5 in parentheses! Piskeiy Teshuvos 69 footnote 17 that possibly he may not say past Hakeil Hakadosh out loud

[21] Admur 69:5 in parentheses; 124:3

[22] See Admur 55:1; 123:7; Shut Maharsham 4:123; Noda Beyehuda Tinyana 7; Chochmas Shlomo 55; Levushei Mordechaiy 1:11; Mishneh Halachaos 6:17; Piskeiy Teshuvos 69 footnote 19

[23] Chochmas Shlomo 55; Levushei Mordechaiy 1:11; Mishneh Halachaos 6:17; Piskeiy Teshuvos 69 footnote 19

The reason: As it is no different than saying any Kaddish after learning. [Mishneh Halachos ibid] To note however that there are Poskim [Aruch Hashulchan 55:9]

Other opinions: Some Poskim rule that it may not be said. [Shut Mahrsham 4:123; Levushei Mordechaiy 11 although he is lenient bedieved, and so is implied in Noda Beyehuda Tinyana 7 that when there was no Chazaras Hashatz the Kaddish may never be said. However, to note that there the Noda Beyehuda is referring to a case that there was no longer a Minyan for even the start of Chazaras Hashatz, while here we are discussing that there was a Minyan for Kedusha, although 6 did not daven together.]

Opinion of Admur: In 55:1 Admur mentions that these Kadesihim are only obligatory when being said after praying with a Minyan. Furthermore, in 69:4 he does not make mention of the recital of these Kadeshim by the lone davener. This may be due to that which he rules in 123:6 that this Kadish of Tiskabel was only instituted by the Tefila of the Shliach Tzibur.

[24] Chochmas Shlomo 55; Levushei Mordechaiy 1:11; Mishneh Halachaos 6:17; Piskeiy Teshuvos 69 footnote 19